I had my first experience with a dealership this week

"CSX-55" (CSX-55) 08/06/2014 at 13:14 • Filed to: None

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Spoiler Alert: I didn't buy the car.

( Full disclosure : My dad wanted to drive and own a Dodge Magnum R/T so badly that, as a diligent son, I've spent months scouring the nation looking for the right one to buy him. I finally found one that met all his criteria within a reasonable driving distance, in sunny Phoenix, AZ. )

Part 1: The Search

My father has an odd fascination with the Dodge Magnum. Charger? Nope. Chrysler 300? No way. But a Magnum? He pines for them. He's always wanted one. With a Hemi, naturally. So after months of regularly scouring various Craigslists around the western US as well as Autotrader and Cars.com, I finally came across one that fit the bill - a 2008 R/T, RWD, in Inferno Red Crystal Pearlcoat.

-Reasonably priced at $14,900? 

-Relatively low mileage of 61k for a 2008 model? 

-Not silver? 

-One previous owner? 

-GOT HEMI? 

The only problem - it was at a dealership. I'm a relatively seasoned used car buying veteran, typically utilizing Craigslist and Autotrader for cash purchases and sales. But walking into a dealership and trying negotiate a purchase was as foreign to me as a turn signal is to most BMW owners. How hard could it be?

Part 2: The Preparations

I did my research. And by that I mean, I talked to my mom, who'd bought a couple of new cars on her own, but never a used vehicle. I !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . And perused the internet for anything even vaguely resembling used car buying advice. And this is an overview of what I gathered:

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-Used cars on the lot are open for negotiation just like most anything else.

-That said, you'll still pay more than you would with a private party.

-He/she who talks the most is losing the negotiation.

-Sales tax is a necessary and evil expense to be considered except for in Alaska, Montana, Oregon, New Hampshire, and Delaware.

-Financing a used car is akin to chopping up a vital organ and mailing it in with each monthly payment.

-Carefully review the purchase agreement for hidden fees

-Don't buy a car from a dealership

These are things I pretty much already knew, and despite all the negative press that dealership get from Jalops and pretty much everyone in general, I decided to give buying this Magnum a shot, dealership be damned. Finding one that my dad would want was going to be difficult in general given their rarity, so to find one just a couple hours away in his price range practically necessitated consideration. Besides, at their advertised asking price, the price was comparable to others that you'd find on the private market.

Having done the math and being a self-proclaimed pro negotiator, I thought I could score the Hemi-powered wagon for somewhere between $14k-15k out the door. I came up with this figure considering the following assumptions:

-$14,900 was an initial asking price and subject to negotiation

-Sales tax rate of 8.5% would add roughly $1100 to the negotiated sale price

-I could negotiate a sales price of anywhere from $13,000 to $13,800 (or $1900 to $1100 off the asking price, respectively)

-I'd be paying cash, not financing, and isn't there usually a cash discount on most major purchases? I know dealers can make a killing on financing, but still...

-Being a used vehicle, there would be no extraneous fees like you'd find tacked onto new cars

As I discovered...it's nowhere near that simple. Or cheap.

Part 3: Making Contact

Two days prior to going to see the car, I clicked the "Get ePrice" button on the page set up for the Magnum on the dealer's website, foolishly thinking maybe they'd give me a ballpark out the door number. Thankfully, the form didn't require a phone number.

Within an hour, I had an email from a fleet manager. We'll call him Fleet Manager #1. I was working, and not checking my email quite yet. By the end of the day, when I did finally check, I had two more emails. It was at this point that I wondered if it was an elaborate bot or just a really enthusiastic salesman.

Within two days, I had seven emails. Seven. Each worded uniquely, but could very well be scripted, still leaving me wondering about whether it was a real person or not. I found the opt-out button at the bottom of the email and clicked, realizing that I wasn't going to get any useful information by email.

On the day I had decided to drive out to look at the car, I called the dealership simply to make sure it was still there. I get passed to a salesman...another fleet manager, so he proclaimed. We'll call him Fleet Manager #2. I gave him a stock number, and this is what he told me.

"The Magnum? Let me check on that for you...yep, I can't believe it made it through the weekend, but it's still here."

Last I checked, gas-guzzling, 6-year old station wagons that were phased out due to slow sales weren't exactly flying off the lots, but I digress.

I let him know I'd likely be up that day to check it out, and left it at that. Within about half an hour, I got another call from yet another fleet manager (Fleet Manager #3, if you're counting). She just wanted to follow up and see if I wanted to schedule an appointment to see the car. I declined, simply stating that my schedule had not firmed up yet and that I'd be in contact.

Part 4: The Negotiation

Two hours and an In-N-Out burger later, I found myself at the dealership, and on the pre-owned lot, there sat the Magnum in all its wagon-y goodness. Within 15 seconds of having exited my vehicle, the first salesman was upon me. I let him know I spoke with Fleet Managers #2 and #3 earlier - he went inside to go grab one of them.

I got to work inspecting the car, looking it over, finding very little to complain about minus a small ding here and there, along with a couple of (repaired) cracks on the lower front bumper, likely from a curb that jumped out and snapped at the poor Magnum. While I was giving the car a once over, another sales person came over...you guessed it, Fleet Manager #4.

I mean, how vast is their fleet that it requires an army of managers to keep it under control? Or do they just give everyone that works there that title?

As expected, I quickly established that I know a hell of a lot more about the Magnum than Fleet Manager #4 does. Which is fine, because I didn't need him to sell me on the car, just to sell me the car. Went for a test drive, car drove great, and after pointing (and slightly exaggerating) some of the cars flaws, the conversation turned to the part of a dealership transaction that everyone likes the least...

"So, what are you looking to spend on the car?"

Not what's on the window sticker, that's for sure.

"Well then, let's go inside and see what we can do for you."

And off we went. Asked for some basic info from me, and what kind of financing I was looking at. So as to not show all my cards quite yet, I let him quote me assuming I would finance the car.

A few minutes later, he came back out with a printout of the price, and right away jumped into discussing my monthly payment...of course, my eyes turned toward the bottom-line total.

$18,485.24

Somewhere, somehow, something went horribly wrong in the five minutes Fleet Manager #4 spent making this printout. How did this 2008 Dodge Magnum suddenly increase in price by $3500?

The breakdown looked like this:

Vehicle Price - $18,725.00

Preferred Customer Discount - $3,825.00

Subtotal - $14,900.00 (aka the advertised price)

Fees - $655.00

Options - $1,274.00

Taxes - $1,656.24

Total Price - $18,485.24

I asked for a breakdown of what "Fees" and "Options" were. Last I checked, I was buying a used vehicle - as is, how is, where is, no warranties expressed or implied. What "Options" could I possibly be paying for?

These options, apparently:

Paint Protection - $300.00 (a "coating" applied to the paint to increase paint life, aka a coat of wax)

ScotchGuard Interior - $200.00 (a stain repellant...for a leather interior?)

Window Tint - $200.00 (pretty much all dealers do this, I get it)

Theft Deterrent - $300.00 (a siren attached to a valet switch, likely installed on the car by the previous owner, and not even hooked up)

VTR (Vehicle Theft Registration) - $200.00 (WTF? I had honestly never heard of this)

Maintenance (3 included oil changes) - $74.00 (Don't want it, never asked for it, do my own maintenance)

And these fees:

Doc Fee - $399.95

Lieu tax - $100.00

Postage - $3.00

Registration - $143.05

Tire Fee - $5.00

Title - $4.00

Needless to say, I was less than pleased. I explained that I was buying a used car and never wanted or agreed to any "options", period. This is when I also inquired about what kind of discount I could get if I paid in cash.

"Well, we can remove all the options except for the VTR and maintenance, because those are required by corporate. Let me talk to the sales manager and see what we can do."

A few minutes later, he came back with a new printout...the bottom line now read $16,985.24. Better, but still about $2k more than I was willing to spend. The vehicle price remained unchanged, but all "Options" minus $274 for the VTR/maintenance had been removed, and a few bucks removed from the "Fees". When I inquired about a cash discount, I was told "Sorry, the price you see is the internet price and the best price we can give you." I called BS, being that it's the same price on the window that anyone driving down the street will see. But he maintained that they can't go a dime lower than the internet price.

I got up, thanked him for his time, and proceeded to leave the dealership. I knew what to expect next, and wasn't let down - I was asked to head into the sales manager's office, who coincidentally, was also Fleet Manager #2 I spoke to on the phone earlier that day. It was pretty apparent that he had no interest in dealing with me any further, telling me I was "way off" on my offer, and was only trying to convince me that I had been given the "lowest price possible" by throwing a bunch of numbers at me such as the trade-in price they paid on the car, what they had to pay the techs to inspect the car, etc.

When it became obvious I wasn't going to pay more than $15,000 out the door and they had no interest in moving on the price of the car, I helped myself to a couple of chocolate chip cookies and a couple bottles of water from their lobby to help offset wasting many hours of my time, and left.

Part 5 - Conclusion

The next day, I received calls from Fleet Managers #3 and #2, separately, and in that order. I explained to #3 that we weren't able to reach an agreement on the price, what with all the extra money in un-advertised expenses and options along with their unwillingness to move on the advertised price. About half an hour later, #2 called, asking bluntly "So, have you reconsidered, are you ready to spend an extra couple of grand?" I think you can guess my response.

I can't knock this dealership in particular - while Fleet Manager #2 came across as something of a jackass with his tone, the rest of the sales staff was pretty courteous and more or less just doing their job. I accept that this is just how dealers work - and as an engineer and a small-business owner myself, I simply can't and won't agree with it. I can guaran-damn-tee that if I ever quoted my customers X amount for a service, but instead tried to charge them Y (assuming Y > X, of course), I would very quickly be out of a job.

When Fleet Manager #2 resorted to telling me all the costs they have in the car, he lost me. The way I see it is, all that is the cost of business, and if they haven't priced the car to allow for some wiggle room while covering expenses and still making a profit without having to resort to thousands of dollars in useless options and fees, then the dealer has not priced its vehicle properly and by extension, is not doing its job properly. It shouldn't take thousands of dollars in hidden fees to make a profit - and I don't care what I was told, even at what I was offering, I know they'd be making at least a quick $1500 or more, but they'd rather hold out for some sucker who is willing to give them three to five grand in profit instead.

So this was my first - and likely only - dealer experience, told by a Jalop to my fellow Jalops. I'll be sticking to private party sales, where I'll never pay more than what someone is asking for a vehicle, and will continue to staunchly support Tesla in their quest to bring car buying to the people sans middle man.

For you car buying veterans, I'd appreciate any input - maybe you can tell me what I did right or wrong, and if was in fact "way off" in my expectations for buying a used vehicle from a dealership.

Sn210 > CSX-55 08/06/2014 at 13:26

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it's all a game, and you're doing very well. First off, do not pay extra for any if those "options". If they are "required by corporate" (which is bullshit) they can take them off the price if the car. If the company requires them, it's not you the customer's problem. Same with the doc fees, if they have to leave them in there, tell them to adjust the price if the car. You've got them calling you, which is good. It means they're worried you're not going to buy the car.

If you decide to go back, tell them up front they have one shot and give then your final out-the-door number. If they can't meet that number, they lost.

N51fanatic > CSX-55 08/06/2014 at 13:27

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As a former car salesman i can tell you this....

If they let you leave without buying a car than they honestly could not sell you the car. Its really that simple. They are in the business of selling cars, they gain nothing by letting you walk out the door.

As for the price, many times a dealer goes high on a trade allowance in order to complete a deal (especially lucrative ones). That being said, perhaps the guy who traded in that magnum was buying a viper. Book on the Magnum is X, but the dealership in order to sell the viper gave the previous owner a trade allowance of $X+$1000 to close the deal.

What that means for you, is that in your quest to buy the car for $X, you can't becuase the dealership is into the car for more than that. Additionally, the service departments are an entire different business than the sales side. At my old dealership, the GM of service would practically rehaul every used trade in we took in, putting almost $1000 worth of service into them before putting them back on the lot. So back to my previous example, the magnum was taken in at $X + $1000, but after service is done, its $X + $2000.

The dealerships can afford to sit on the cars and will sell it when they sell it. No hard feelings man, they own it for too much. Just keep looking.

Lumpy44, Proprietor Of Fine Gif > CSX-55 08/06/2014 at 13:28

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If you can pay the sticker price after the fees and taxes and such then you normally did ok and got them down a few grand. It will sit there a couple weeks and they will call you about it I'm sure.

CSX-55 > N51fanatic 08/06/2014 at 13:32

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You're just the kind of person I was hoping to hear from in the comments - someone with inside knowledge and experience.

This was definitely a good learning experience for me, and I'm glad to know that they weren't selling me complete BS by throwing out their service department costs and whatnot. Like I mentioned, I don't bear any hard feelings against the sales staff or the dealership - I realize now that this is simply the way the dealer system works. Even though I think its kind of a crappy system.

DipodomysDeserti > CSX-55 08/06/2014 at 13:33

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I've bought a few used cars from dealerships in Phoenix, and I've had the same experience as you at a few of them (the one's I didn't buy cars from). For whatever reason, there are some places that won't go lower from their advertised internet price. It makes no sense. I get them to wipe the "options" off the price list immediately, and then work on their base asking price. I walked away from three different deals at different dealers that wouldn't come down at all. If you look around enough you'll find dealers willing to negotiate. I picked up a CPO 335d for about $6k off what they were asking (was only about $2k off Blue Book). Also, you won't necessarily get screwed over on financing from a dealer. I got 1.9% APR with 0 down on my used BMW. That's way lower interest than the lowest rate they offer on new BMW's.

CSX-55 > Lumpy44, Proprietor Of Fine Gif 08/06/2014 at 13:34

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That was my thought exactly - roughly $15k for that car in that condition with those options is comparable to what I could find on the private market. I went in trying to get them a little under that, but was perfectly content cutting a check for the price on the window and driving off into the sunset. I simply wasn't ready to be told that I'd have to cut a check for significantly more for the same amount of car.

Firewrx234 > N51fanatic 08/06/2014 at 13:36

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This...all of this... I currently work at a dealer and I came to say exactly what you said. I also came to point out that the internet price is often times pretty close to our bottom dollar. (Trying to remain competitive and all)

I hate that it works that way but that's what happens.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > CSX-55 08/06/2014 at 13:36

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I bought my first car from a dealer a week or two ago. I asked for the key so he handed me it and said "I'll leave you to it, let me know if you keed anything" It all looked fine so I test drove it, again fine. I said I was interested but wanted the yearly tax renewed for a full year and a full years MOT (legally required UK roadworthiness test.) He agreed and I paid a deposit.

3 days later it had been taxed and tested, I paid up (the price it had been listed for) and drove home.

Not sure why some dealers make it so complex.

N51fanatic > CSX-55 08/06/2014 at 13:37

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yeah man, no sweat. You wouldn't believe how many times i would take in a trade in , for like $8k, have a new customer come in a week or two later looking for that trade in. I go to work the deal, only to find out that we are into the car for $11k becuase the service departnet decided it needed new brakes and tires and whatever else he felt like doing to pad his own service receipts. It got so bad that we knew which cars in the lot we had ZERO chance selling becuase they were unsellable at the prices we were into them for.

Decay buys too many beaters > CSX-55 08/06/2014 at 13:37

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Amen brother. I've always been able to take about 15-25% off of advertised prices, but I've had to be an absolute dick to do it (no remorse). I usually ask for receipts and formal documentation for any "work" the car has had done, and I deduct costs for any upcoming major maintenance that they cannot prove has been carried out. Even successfully negotiating is really stressful and not exactly an activity that I enjoy.

I love private party sales though, much more pleasant. I even prefer dealing with the occasional asshole craigslister over the average used car dealer.

pfftballer > CSX-55 08/06/2014 at 13:39

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Was this one of those "buy here pay here" outfits? They often have no desire to sell anyone a car unless they are dealer financing it, because that's where they make their money.

Lumpy44, Proprietor Of Fine Gif > CSX-55 08/06/2014 at 13:41

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Ya they really like to tack on those other fees to help their bottom lines. That oil change thing blew my mind actually, how they think they can add something from their service department to the cost of a car confuses me. Dealerships will always be more than private but then again they have a huge overhead to deal with (ie: 4 fleet managers).

I remember my dad calling the dealership everyday asking if they were going to give him the Avalanche he wanted for the sticker price yet and eventually they did. You will get one for $15k, maybe not this one though.

CSX-55 > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 08/06/2014 at 13:42

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You may or may not be surprised to learn that Americans seem to have a habit of doing the same kind of business in a different (and usually worse) way than the rest of the world. Take cell phone providers and their contracts, for example. Most countries scoff at the notion of being locked into a provider, and worse yet, having to pay money to switch providers, what with the prevalence of pre-paid and pay-as-you-go plans everywhere else.

I'd be very interested in learning whether or not the UK has different/specific guidelines governing car sales that may have an impact on how streamlined the process is.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > CSX-55 08/06/2014 at 13:46

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Maybe our regulation is different, either that or the culture. I haven't really known anyone have any hassle like that negotiating. I certainly have never heard of the listed price not being the price you pay.

On your phone point, most people are locked into a provider here for 2 years at a time. Once the two years are up you phone to cancel (free) and buy another.

CSX-55 > pfftballer 08/06/2014 at 13:46

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No, this was a Dodge-Chrysler-Jeep dealership, not a dedicated used car lot.

fragity > N51fanatic 08/06/2014 at 13:58

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What that means for you, is that in your quest to buy the car for $X, you can't becuase the dealership is into the car for more than that.

You see, to me, that's just not my problem, and a dealer should understand that. You chose to pay too much for the car, I should not be expected to cover your mistake, and you can go ahead and let the thing sit on the lot for another 4 months while making interest payments on it.

N51fanatic > fragity 08/06/2014 at 14:06

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The dealerships job is to make money. Selling cars is just a means to make said "money". The dealership can and will let the car sit until another joe shmoe walks in looking for a car with more "space". They will then be shown the magnum, at which point the dealer will in lieu of giving them $X for their sebring, will give them X-$1000. See what they did there? They played hocus pocus with the money and just made the magnum $1000 cheaper.

The dealership will sell the car, and will make money. I guarantee you.

Dsscats > CSX-55 08/06/2014 at 15:52

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I once had a dealer try to tell me that sales tax on a $5000 car would be $1000.

Dsscats > CSX-55 08/06/2014 at 15:52

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And it's kind of a good thing, because that car is waaaay overpriced. I say $12k sounds about right for that

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > CSX-55 08/07/2014 at 10:44

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You can't be scared of the ultimatum...

"I am willing to pay this out the door, all taxes and fees included. Take it or leave it."

However, this only works if you are willing to walk and not talk to them again about the car.

CSX-55 > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 08/07/2014 at 13:13

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And that's exactly what I did. I left and had no intentions of dealing with them any further - they've contacted me twice since, but not to negotiate any further, only to ask if I'm ready to pay more money.